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Spell Casting Time
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Do you think a Spell Casting time should be imposed?
Yes! I'm ALL for it!
33%
 33%  [ 8 ]
No! Absolutely not!
58%
 58%  [ 14 ]
I can see potential to it... but uncertain as of now.
8%
 8%  [ 2 ]
Total Votes : 24

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Muric
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2003 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let me be blunt: I think increasing spell-casting times are a bad idea. This is really a question of game balance. Any change in casting times would have an enormous effect on that balance. Simply doubling casting times (2 rounds) for the primary PvP / monster-fighting spells would literally make a mage 1/2 of what he was before. This is no minor adjustment.

As far as the current game balance (Dyso as it is today), the classes are more balanced than some seem to think. If you view sorcerers as unbeatable, then you don't have your character set-up and equipped properly. And I mean no offense by this, but yes you can make characters of other classes to beat sorcerers more times than not. As far as monsters / bosses, yes sorcerers take down the Dark Lord / Gloth Sentry much more easily. I like Shihi's AI adjustment idea to solve this problem.

As far as the post-wipe game balance, people seem to be viewing this on the short term. Yes, all weapons above +3 and all really powerful magic items will no longer be available in NPC stores. But the way I read things from Gesh's posts, these more powerful items can still be made via trade skills. Yes, there will be a period of perhaps a couple of months (?) without many of these items around, but eventually the formulas for these items will be discovered. Gesh, correct me on this if I'm wrong. It's really a question of how hard the formulas are to figure out.

But to discuss this short-term, post-wipe game balance, don't forget one simple thing that will balance the powerful mage spells: Knockdown. Every fighter has it. Unless there is an "Immunity: Knockdown" item available in stores, mages will spend some serious time on their backs. It's quite hard to cast from your back, let me assure you. Without knockdown, then yes mages will experience quite a power increase in relation to other classes on the short-term. There would be no +5 weapons around to by-pass their damage reduction spells such as stoneskin. The lack of immunities will help them too, although other classes can simulate the immunities to a certain extent with high saving throws (unless the saving throw boosting items are removed from stores).

One other post-wipe note: the xp system will be changed, so it will be very difficult to reach the highest levels. Hopefully this will make the PvP balancing issues less important, because people will be doing trade skills or else partying together to improve their characters.
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Darkshadow666
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2003 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I say don't mess with the spellcasting time. Leave it the way the way it is. Why punish us Magi...come on I won't burn your arse too much with my spells.

If there is spellcasting time...why not "Weapon honing", "Restringing", or "deception training" time for Fighters, Archers, or rogues? Come on people....don't your blades ever get dull or your bow string get loose?

Fair is fair right Gesh?
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Shihi
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2003 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Shihi you pose a good argument, however, you go after the Mage when you see him start casting a spell.... why? Why do you do that?

Lets assume Im playing a melee tank.
There are several reasons. The most important for me because a mage is a magic artillery that means ranged attack. If Im so dumb and fight with the tank in front of the ranged attacker he gets free attacks and damage on me. Thats damge from protector tank AND ranged unit behind. Also ranged enemies have in all games I played so far a bad protection. So I kill a ranged unit a lot faster than a unit which is geared for melee.
So I go first for the weak, fast killable unit and after victory I confront the remaining ground troops. Granted... Im already damaged and I probably have to run for my life, but fact is that I killed 1 unit on enemies side which weakens the overall armee of my opponent.

Ask yourself: How do you fight xivian huntresses? You go as fast into melee as possible, as there you have a lot higher chance to win than using a bow (as they are immune to magic).
Quote:
Because mages are POWERFUL. When they DO get spells off they hurt.

Mages are weak, but they have a powerful attack. If you cast for 30 sec a spell... how often do you think you can get hit in this time and always win your conc check?
Take away the powerful attack of a mage... Whats left?
Also... if Im able to see a threat coming I can react to it which makes it less dangerous. If everything fails I can still run.
Quote:
Especially once dyso goes a little bit more hardcore with out all the immunites, I think mages will dominate.

It can be. We will know it if after the wipe.

Oh and as nobody mentioned it: As I said that the first thing I do is killing an opposing caster. Thats actually DUMB. I dont have to kill a caster to neutralize him. I only have to be NEAR him/her and make enough damage so that the conc checks fails if he tries to cast. This way I can fight the protecting melee tank AND get attack of opportunities (additional attacks) against the mage.
The reason why I go directly for the mage is simplicism (lag, knowledge about cocentration failure, steering) but actually its not the best combat tactic.

So back to topic... Increasing casting times will alter performance big time. We will have after the wipe already a powershift anyway, so its probably wise first to wait and see hows it going and if suddenly mages are super-duber killer you still can change it.
And... From my experience, I wont play anything where I have to wait 30 sec before its happening; I HATE LAG and 5 sec delays on my steering kills my fun big time.

Shihi
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Zedium
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2003 6:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The prob with the oposers of spell casting time, is that they keep thinking in soloing,

Has anyone ever read about a wizard who likes to fight without a meatshield? (lord of the rings mages do not count, they aren't DnD mages) Aprentices count as meatshields BTW.

A mage just isn't a soloer, he needs support, anyone ever noticed why you always have to take the spellcasters out first? because they are damn dangerous when not alone, they can just heal and buff others, or fling some serious firepower.

But I will stress it again, Mages aren't for soloing!
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Nei
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2003 7:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Honestly I have found playing a sorc is much harder than a defensive fighter or defensive rogue. I admit I have not tried to make Nei powerful in anyway, but everybody*I haven't actually fought anybody yet* and everything is immune to EVERY spell type. So I am kind of torn on this issue. If the immunities are harder to come by then by all means I support casting times. But as it is now even in a group I get torn up because I cannot touch anything because I am not a directly offensive spell caster. SO in conclusion I think that if both immunities were harder to come by and casting times were implimented then it would improve the role-playing and game play, as well as increase party participation which I would like to see more of.
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Shihi
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2003 11:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The prob with the oposers of spell casting time, is that they keep thinking in soloing,

No idea why one leads forcefully to the other.

The point is that a player will get the mage and ignores any meatshields in front of it. In NWN you cant block someone, its simply impossible (try it out with a friend).

The only situation meatshields work are for a monster AI because it is too dumb to trade some damage in and run past the defending tank.
But there are AI scripts out which improve this behaviour.

And writing this text I suddenly realize that spellcasting time is technically nearly not makable because we forgot to realize that bows exist.
Yeah... who cares about the 50 tanks in front of the mage if a rogue with a bow gets constant sneaks at the mage. Speaking of sneaks... during casting every attack on a mage is a sneak, did you realize this?
Will every damage force a new conc check (how often can you shoot with a bow on someone in 30 sec?)
If someone joins/leaves the party during the spellcasting, is the spell cancled (probably yes, as this is a bug which bioware seems unable to fix).
And so on...

Shihi
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Ectovult
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2003 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

But I will stress it again, Mages aren't for soloing!


Well they're not for soloing... but the problem is that they ARE soloing...
A lvl 20 mage can solo the emerald caverns with no trouble at all...
But with the third era, this is going to change... a LOT...

I say we wait and see what gesh & company have for us in 3.x and THEN see if casting time is necessary.
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Marquis Drayfox
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2003 7:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay... a casting time would NOT BE 30 SECONDS PEOPLE! The HIGHEST that a casting time would go is 3-4 rounds MAX... yes, that is 18-24 seconds, however with HASTE (which all casters have) it is only 1.5-2 rounds, which is 9-12 seconds.

Also, let me remind everybody

THERE ARE OTHER CASTERS BESIDES SORCERERS AND WIZARDS!

This includes: Wizards, Sorcerers, Clerics, Druids, Bards, Rangers, and Paladins...

And yes, I agree with Muric when he says this could be something for the new dyso.. that is why I suggested it!



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Little Teapot
PostSat 02/08/03 3:36pm
Ah... all haste items will be tossed with the new exp. system... and you're STILL halving the power of casters... which imo is WAY too much...  Reply with quote
 
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