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Alignments and Roleplay2, Evil and Chaos

 
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Glorin
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2003 6:57 pm    Post subject: Alignments and Roleplay2, Evil and Chaos Reply with quote

I think I'll start off with kind of an equation though I am not very good at math...


Evil = Self Gain (basically)
Lawful = Abiding by the laws, supporting the laws
Neutral = Neither with or against the law
Chaos = Against the Law

Lawful + Evil = Abiding by the laws inorder to improve themselves, using the law against their enemies, Does not disobey the laws unless he/she can find a loophole. I believe there are two extremes in Lawful Evil, There is the Lawful Evil that hides its Evilness i guess you could say inorder to further their power, but there are also LE characters who are obviously evil (Tho they do not consider themselves that!!, and certainly do not proclaim it) but abide by the laws so that no one can touch them. A Lawyer and a Porno Director are Lawful Evil type people, A Lawyer lies and does all that stuff we know about inorder to improve their reputation and gain more money, do they ever break the law? No. They actually fight for the law tehe. Yet everything they do is for self gain practically, this fits the definition of Evil as stated in the beginning. See how Lawful Evil works? I considers lawyers as the lesser extreme of Lawful Evil because their acts are not entirely obvious. Porno Directors however do things incredibley indecent and immoral (though some may think otherwise i suppose) but there is no way the Law can stop them, they are the biggest extreme in Lawful Evil because they do something indecent and immoral thats obvious to everyone, but the law can't touch them. Lawful Evil Characters never go against the law, if they do they are either Neutral or Chaotic Evil.

Neutral + Evil = Does not abide by the laws completely, neither does he/she go against them all out. A Neutral Evil character is more likely to do what he sees fit, He Will use the Law as a Lawful Evil character would but holds no fear of adding chaos into the mix as well (going against the law). The Neutral Evil character holds no fear of law or chaos but sees following only one of the path as an extreme(sorta) and prefers to use both inorder to improve him/herself. A Neutral Evil Character will abide by the law but holds no fear of going against it inorder to improve him/herself.

Chaotic + Evil = Despises authority and the law, uses whatever means he can get to overthrow or just strike against it. A Chaotic Evil character despises authority and uses what means he can to overthrow it. HOWEVER Chaotic Evil has multiple definitions, Chaotic Evil is mostly defined by the character's diety. CE Cyricists would not openly strike against the law, instead they would rather have different forms of law fight eachother. A CE Cyricist would never kill openly in the name of Cyric. I always define CE Cyricists as Confined CE.
Talos CE characters on the otherhand fit the description before the however.


C+A+D = good RP icon_biggrin.gif

Class + Alignment + Diety.

Class

The Class of a character sets its objectives, its goals, and its way of life. A Cleric for example dedicates his/her life to spreading the voice of their diety. Druids dedicate their lives to protecting nature and the balance. Druids often live in rural areas and although they may visit citys they feel more comfortable living there. Rangers are guides and protectors in the Woods, they guide travellers and help people through the woods (if they are good, but that gets into alignments). Sorcerers and Wizards are similar yet different classes, Sorcerers I believe are rare and powerful (although not so rare in dyso) Sorcerers tend to be chaotic and in it for themselves. Mostly Sorcerers tend to want to expand their power, or show it off, Most sorcerers I believe tend to be chaotic, and stay away from organized groups, if a Sorcerer is found within a Guild it is often to expand their power or something like that, although sorcerers still may join guilds and orgs it is very rare. Wizards on the otherhand while not as powerful as a Sorcerer, they are still powerful and they are much more common. Wizards tend to be more lawful and organize in groups (red wizards). I think by now yall understand what the Class gives to Roleplay, It adds the Goal, it does not give how to accomplish it, it sets the Goal. What Does establish HOW a Character achieves that goal is.....

Alignment

Alignment is how a Character accomplishes his goal, in this I'll focus on EVIL, below Im going to redefine the Different forms of Evil and give one or two examples of Dyso Characters who have played evil very well, so people may take their example.


Lawful Evil = Abiding by the laws inorder to improve themselves, using the law against their enemies, Does not disobey the laws unless he/she can find a loophole.

I believe there are two extremes in Lawful Evil, There is the Lawful Evil that hides its Evilness i guess you could say inorder to further their power, but there are also LE characters who are obviously evil (Tho they do not consider themselves that!!, and certainly do not proclaim it) but abide by the laws so that no one can touch them. A Lawyer and a Porno Director are Lawful Evil type people, A Lawyer lies and does all that stuff we know about inorder to improve their reputation and gain more money, do they ever break the law? No. They actually fight for the law tehe. Yet everything they do is for self gain practically, this fits the definition of Evil as stated in the beginning. See how Lawful Evil works? I considers lawyers as the lesser extreme of Lawful Evil because their acts are not entirely obvious. Porno Directors however do things incredibley indecent and immoral (though some may think otherwise i suppose) but there is no way the Law can stop them, they are the biggest extreme in Lawful Evil because they do something indecent and immoral thats obvious to everyone, but the law can't touch them. Lawful Evil Characters never go against the law, if they do they are either Neutral or Chaotic Evil.

Dyso Examples of Lawful Evil

Lesser Extreme- Tiarella Jones~, Tiarella is one of the greatest LE players i have seen. She acts like a Lawful Neutral person to the public eye, with her keen smile and friendly attitude it leaves everyone to assume shes such a nice and good person. She uses whatever means she can within the restrictions of the law to improve herself, mainly her reputation, money, property, and business. Her wonderful reputation has allowed her to start up Tia's Secret and although she has jacked the prices of normal clothing sold for 2 or 3 GP in sylvandale to about 100-200gp, people buy it just because they think shes such a nice person. See the Lawful Evilness there? Tia is probably one of the best ones in Dyso, she even got Snewo as her underling.

Greater Extreme- Zufal, The recent events (Nel's execution) have shown to me that there is actually a Greater Extreme of LE. Zufal is obviously immoral and indecent due to his open following of the Black Hand, Bane. Everyone knows his evil but no one can touch him, why? He does not act against the law, when he does he'll have someone else do it for him. He uses the law to his advantage, Nel killed him for some reason and when Nel went to apologize and to repent her sins, He uses her confession for his revenge! He asks for a trial (using the law) inorder to exact justice on her. If thats not extremist Lawfu Evil, than what is

Neutral Evil = Does not abide by the laws completely, neither does he/she go against them all out. A Neutral Evil character is more likely to do what he sees fit, He Will use the Law as a Lawful Evil character would but holds no fear of adding chaos into the mix as well (going against the law). The Neutral Evil character holds no fear of law or chaos but sees following only one of the path as an extreme(sorta) and prefers to use both inorder to improve him/herself. A Neutral Evil Character will abide by the law but holds no fear of going against it inorder to improve him/herself.

Dyso Example of Neutral Evil

Glorin of Many Faces, there are no other Neutral Evil characters that i see around but I think i do a decent job playing Neutral Evil. Glorin never goes completely against the law but neither does he follow the law completely. Glorin does whatever is necessary. He will follow the rules of the law as long as it does not interfere with his plans, But he has no problem with going against the law if it does go against them. Neutral Evil is fairly simply and I see it as "Free Evil", other people call it "True Evil". I call it free because Neutral Evil has no restriction in how you go about achieving your goals, you can be both lawful and chaotic evil.


Chaotic Evil = Despises authority and the law, uses whatever means he can get to overthrow or just strike against it. A Chaotic Evil character despises authority and uses what means he can to overthrow it. HOWEVER Chaotic Evil has multiple definitions, Chaotic Evil is mostly defined by the character's diety. CE Cyricists would not openly strike against the law, instead they would rather have different forms of law fight eachother. A CE Cyricist would never kill openly in the name of Cyric. I always define CE Cyricists as Confined CE.
Talos CE characters on the otherhand fit the description before the however.


Dyso Examples of Chaotic Evil

Lesser Extreme (confined chaotic evil)- Mr. Red Hashmeer, was not a follower of Cyric, he was of Tempus, but he was still a lesser extreme of Chaotic Evil. Hashmeer did not go around on random killings, he was an organized leader for the purpose of overthrowing a Lawful Establishment. Hashmeer led the Simbeonese Liberation Army on acts of terrorism and even in taking Sylvandale for the White Rose, Which the intension of bringing power to himself.
He lied, he decieved, he didn't care what laws he broke, as long as he got something out of it.

Greater Extreme- Rellik Cainam Yzarc Rellik was the classic Crazed Rebel. Rellik despised all authority, and wished the destruction of all. He was a follower of Talos, the God of Chaos and Destruction. In the end Drudley's acts got him banned, following the greater extreme of chaotic evil is often mistaken for PKing, sometimes it is pking. The chances are too great and it can be used as an excuse so it is best not to follow this path. Rellik did do a good job on playing the crazed killer and is probably the greatest, the first, and the last greater extreme chaotic evil player to play Dyso.

New Chaotic Evil characters should either follow Hashmeer's example or look into Cyric. the Confined chaotic is still Chaotic Evil but will not get you banned tehe


towards the end i kinda dozed off but ya get the point
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[quote:a89551bc29="AliZee'"]that shits utterly devoid of any meaningless sense...i tottally disagree on tha basis that tha argument you have pressented is full of actual facts and shit, i think based on tha fact that i have no idea of what tha fuck you were talkin gabout i would have to wholoeheartedly proclaim that you are wrong.
Thank you,
AliZee'[/quote]
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Malakalam
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2003 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You forgot a very important lawful evil type -
The type that feels that everyone else is stupid, and that he is the only one who should have any power, and he should be making the rules, because he knows best. These are the Lawful Evils that don't realize they're evil.
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Glorin
PostSat 02/15/03 8:03pm
yea that too  Reply with quote
 
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2003 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd once againt like to plug my new favorite DM suppliment, by AEG, rather than WotC. "Evil"

Quote:

Chaotic evil is the cycle gang who kicks down your door, steals your stuff, burns your house and deep-fries your puppy dog -- then leaves. Lawful evil is a faceless bureaucracy that seizes your house through eminent domain laws, confiscates your property with a court-ordered foreclosure, puts your puppy dog to sleep because he wasn't registered, and then offers to rent your old house back to you at a reasonable rate.

Quote:

Chaotic evil hates to back down from an open fight. Lawful evil hates open fights; it would much rather sneak into your bedroom, cast a sleep spell on you to make sure you're really out, then put a pillow over your face. So much tidier.


Neutral evil -
Quote:

The ideal situation for a neutral evil 'person' is one in which he can convince the opponent to abide by the rules -- all the while, breaking them himself. They are hypocrites, two-faced dealers that provide a backdrop for thier gains, and then destroy thier own rules whenever it becomes troublesome to deal with them.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2003 11:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What can i say Glorin ? That is one helluva post. Perfectly describes the different versions of evil thats out there, as well as other aspects of alignment. Well-written, well-explained, well-done.

Keep it up icon_biggrin.gif
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Conrad Hollows
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2003 11:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let's not get into too much revisionist history. Drudley's actions fit the CE mantle but his supporting RP for it was lacking at best.

I would say, Glorin, that the playing of CE is not impossible ... but you had better support it with plenty of surrounding RP so that folks see it for what it is. Funny how that works, however ... can't concentrate on killing peiople when you're trying to type in some sort of appropriate commentary or dogma. That being the case, the CE play becomes less favorable since you can't fire off that nice timestop and horrid-wilting chain while still extorting the glory of the kill without the risk of the other side getting in close enough to level you.
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Glorin
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2003 5:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Conrad Hollows wrote:
Let's not get into too much revisionist history. Drudley's actions fit the CE mantle but his supporting RP for it was lacking at best.

I would say, Glorin, that the playing of CE is not impossible ... but you had better support it with plenty of surrounding RP so that folks see it for what it is. Funny how that works, however ... can't concentrate on killing peiople when you're trying to type in some sort of appropriate commentary or dogma. That being the case, the CE play becomes less favorable since you can't fire off that nice timestop and horrid-wilting chain while still extorting the glory of the kill without the risk of the other side getting in close enough to level you.


did u read the whole post? or just the drud part?
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[quote:a89551bc29="AliZee'"]that shits utterly devoid of any meaningless sense...i tottally disagree on tha basis that tha argument you have pressented is full of actual facts and shit, i think based on tha fact that i have no idea of what tha fuck you were talkin gabout i would have to wholoeheartedly proclaim that you are wrong.
Thank you,
AliZee'[/quote]
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2003 5:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i think we need to burn thoese equations into some peoples brains using a really hot iron. Maybe then they will get the point. Or just have a bad headache... one or the other.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2003 11:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow, Glorin, nicely done. I hope that some people now would actually understand what the evils are, instead of just going around and bashing people with the "I'm evil" excuse.
Perhaps we should do something like that for good too, since i can't see a goodie-goodie paladin going around killing people JUST because they are evil, but there are people who do that. A paldin should look for justice, not kill people because they have a certain alignment.
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Glorin
PostMon 02/17/03 2:27am
I'll make one on good later on.....

took an hour to write that one
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 17, 2003 4:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Filtered Chaos wrote:
i think we need to burn thoese equations into some peoples brains using a really hot iron. Maybe then they will get the point. Or just have a bad headache... one or the other.

actually, you can't get headaches from brain injury. you can operate on the brain without anesthetic.
i think i have the Evil thing worked out. it was fun confronting Karmine PINSON priest of TYR, calling his god false then (missing) a harm. it was great. where was i on your list, Glor? huh?!? WHERE WAS I?!?
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Matthijs says:
   oh ja, ik weet het zonet nog niet
Matthijs says:
   het ziet er toch wel een beetje naar uit dat we nederlands praten
Matthijs says:
   mischien moet ik dan maar eens vaker nederlands gaan praten
Matthijs says:
   kan je me ook meteen niet op al mijn spellinsfouten wijzen
There you have it! indisputable proof Solo's a fascist!!!
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 17, 2003 5:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ok mr. picky... hehe icon_twisted.gif . But yeah, these are realy good ideas. Hopefully people will start following them.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 22, 2003 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is TSR's basic overview of Alignments:

Subject: Alignment - a guide from TSR
From: lrmead@whale.st.usm.edu (Lawrence R. Mead)
Date: 14 Mar 1997 14:56:24 GMT

In a number of threads here, the idea of alignment has in my view been
misinterpreted, in particular, Lawful, and Evil. Thus, I have decided to
"reprint" part of an original article from the Dragon magazine
( Dragon, 1979, p23) in which guidelines are given - in game terms - for
the role play of each of the nine ADnD alignments. As the author (Carl
Parlagreco) states, the guidelines are not always absolutes, but are
a set of *guides* to the meaning of words like Lawful, and so on.
I pass these guidelines out to all players in my campaign(s) and expect
them to be followed as closely as possible: that is, I judge their
alignments (in part) by how they behave in the situations covered in the
guide. Hope it is useful to you as well.

LAWFUL GOOD Will keep their word if they give it
Would not attack an unarmed foe
Will not use poison
Will help those in need
Prefers to work with others
Responds well to higher authority
Trustful of organizations

LAWFUL NEUTRAL Will keep their word if they give it
May attack an unarmed foe
May use poison
May help those in need
Prefers to work with others
Responds well to authority
Trustful of organizations

LAWFUL EVIL Will keep their word if they give it
Would attack an unarmed foe
Will use poison
Will not help those in need
Prefers to work with others
Responds well to higher authority
Trustful of organizations

NEUTRAL GOOD Will keep thier word to others of good alignment
Would not attack an unarmed foe
Will not use poison
Will help others in need
May work with others
Indifferent to higher authoritye
Indifferent to organizations

TRUE NEUTRAL Will keep their workd if in their best interst
May attack an unarmed foe
May use poison
May help those in need
May work with others
Indifferent to authority
Indifferent to organizations

NEUTRAL EVIL Will not necessarily keep their word
Would attack an unarmed foe
Will use poison
Will not help those in need
May work with others
Indifferent to higher authority
Indifferent to organizations

CHAOTIC GOOD Will keep their word to others of good alignment
would not attack an unarmed fore
Will not use poison
Will help those in need
Prefers to work alone
Responds poorly to higher authority
Distrustful of organizations

CHAOTIC NEUTRAL Will keep their workd if in their best interest
May atack an unarmed foe
May use poison
May help those in need
Prefers to work alone
Responds poorly to higher authority
Distrustful of organizations

CHAOTIC EVIL Will not necessarily keep their word
Would attack an unarmed foe
Will use poison
Will not help those in need
Prefers to work alone
Presponds poorly to higher authority
Distrustful of organizations
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Marine436
PostMon 02/24/03 2:56pm
keep in mind, alinment's are just the "core" of the char, not the entier char.  Reply with quote
 
Glorin
PostMon 02/24/03 9:36pm
thats what the C,A,D is  Reply with quote
 
Malakalam
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2003 9:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm bored, so I thought I'd make a comment.
Quote:

Porno Directors however do things incredibley indecent and immoral (though some may think otherwise i suppose) but there is no way the Law can stop them, they are the biggest extreme in Lawful Evil because they do something indecent and immoral thats obvious to everyone, but the law can't touch them.


I'd consider porno directors to be closer to lawful nuetral, they're in it for themselves but generally aren't attempting to injure anyone, as an evil person would.

I think a better example of the far edge of lawful evil is the child porn director who makes his film in a third world country where its legal. The law can't touch him, he'll make a fortune by selling it to someone less lawful to sell through the black market, and he's definatly doing something that hurts and damages people.


I'd also like to point out that its hard as hell to play lawful evil, because no one upholds the laws in Dysotopia. If I trick some poor buffoon into breaking a law, I want to be able to laugh at them in jail, and not find thier sword in my chest later that day unless it will cause them to enjoy MORE jail time.

OOH! another good example of lawful evil is the Gator company and the Kazaa company. I dunno about Kazaa though, they might just be neutral evil, as they seem to flaunt the fact that they're helping millions of people every day break copywrite laws.
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