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SNEAK ATTACKS!!!
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Do you think sneak attacks should be more powerful?
Yes!
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 28%  [ 10 ]
All the same...
14%
 14%  [ 5 ]
No!
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 57%  [ 20 ]
Total Votes : 35

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Adario
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2003 8:17 pm    Post subject: SNEAK ATTACKS!!! Reply with quote

Im wondering here that is it somehow possible to change sneak attack system so that you would get the most affective hit when sneak attacking the first time, when the victim doesnt see you. Then the rest of the sneak attacks wouldnt be so powerful... I mean that if you are hiding and the victim doesnt spot you, you would get like double dmg AND attack bonus when hittting the target first time (so you really hit him!). I havent thought about the number of bonses, but they should be visible so you really hit and dmg the victim!

Btw does reflex affect anyhow your change to dodge the sneak attack? If not, thats stupid...cause if your AC is high it wont help you f someone comes to hit you and you dont know anything about the attacker. That should be reflex-thing. Successfull reflex saving throw should be the only way to dodge the first sneak attack, when you dont see the attcker yet.

I wish they will do something so rogues can really assassinate people, not just to try assassinate and get killed by the "so called victim"...

Another btw: Do you get also bonus to your attack bonus when sneak attacking or do you just get dmg bonus? If just dmg, thats insane...you must hit the target which is not even trying to dodge your hit!!! Even i could do it in my real life icon_lol.gif

so, what do you think?
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Uin
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2003 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You only get a bonus to atk with sneak atk. You get no bonus to atk, but when you get most sneaks the enemy is denied there dex/dodge AC bonus. You get no atk bonus to sneaks for game balance, therefore its not insane.
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Adario
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2003 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yeah, thats not insane when you are in battle and you get sneak attacks when hitting the target, but he sees you. This more powerful sneak attack should only be then, when the victim does not see you adn you come hit him...
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Nefiorim
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2003 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, the sneak attack should be considered a special attack made by rogues to an offguard opponent. Someone who isn't in a fighting stance or fighting someone else will be off-guard, and a rogue has the ability to move so fast that he can make unsuspected (sneak) attacks. The system is exactly as it should be, the only point where I can see it being changed would be for a special assassin subclass.

((FYI, Sneak isn't necessarily backstab, though it does include it))
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Adario
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2003 9:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

((FYI, Sneak isn't necessarily backstab, though it does include it))

well what about the "backstab", is it when you hit the guy when he wont see you at all? i think that sould be more powerful sneak attack than normallly...the others should be normal sneak attacks then...


Last edited by Adario on Sat Jan 25, 2003 7:25 am, edited 1 time in total
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Adario
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2003 7:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

okay we have been thinking, and i think the dmg is pretty good in sneak attack (of course it should be more if it was realistic but for game balance it is near good for now) but the attack bonus thing is pretty strange. DOES ANYONE KNOW SURELY: dO YOU GET ANY EXTRA ATTACK BONUS WHEN SNEAK ATTACKING? Now if you dont know answer to this, please dont say anything becasue im confused now: some people say you get bonus, some say you dont get any...

So what i mean is: IF there is NOTany extra attack bonus at the moment, i think that should be changed somehow, at least the first hit should have some bonus to attack bonus, maybe all the sneak attacks...but especially the first one. Sneak attack is useless if you cant hit the target! and i cant imagine an assassin who doesnt hit the target who doesnt even know about the assassin...i mean the first hit.
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Uin
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2003 9:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Uin Fleetwood wrote:
You only get a bonus to atk with sneak atk. You get no bonus to atk, but when you get most sneaks the enemy is denied there dex/dodge AC bonus. You get no atk bonus to sneaks for game balance, therefore its not insane.

Note your atk bonus stays the same, but your oppenents AC is dropped, therefore there is some advantage to you when sneak atking.
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Adario
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2003 9:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

Uin Fleetwood wrote:
You only get a bonus to atk with sneak atk. You get no bonus to atk, but when you get most sneaks the enemy is denied there dex/dodge AC bonus. You get no atk bonus to sneaks for game balance, therefore its not insane.

Note your atk bonus stays the same, but your oppenents AC is dropped, therefore there is some advantage to you when sneak atking.


so how much does his AC drop?
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Uin
PostSat 01/25/03 10:20am
In most cases, all dodge AC.
So Haste gives 4 dodge, plus any Dex AC.
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Adario
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2003 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

btw what is the ac dodge bonus limit? 10? if i have mobility-feat and haste, I also have +5 dodge ac bonus in my boots. Do i need mobility feat if i have those others, do i get any bonus then or should i get some other feat? Mobility gives +4 dodge... icon_confused.gif

It is good, that you kinda get attack bonus bonus when sneak attacking...but i still think you should always hit the first hit when the victim doesnt know about you...
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2003 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

High AC isn't all about being able to hit someone or not, but to be able to injure someone. Go ahead, use your puny dagger and hit someone on a full plate, chance is you won't hurt him because the dagger isn't able to pierce the plating. That's also something AC is about.
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Adario
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2003 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

High AC isn't all about being able to hit someone or not, but to be able to injure someone. Go ahead, use your puny dagger and hit someone on a full plate, chance is you won't hurt him because the dagger isn't able to pierce the plating. That's also something AC is about.


yeah, okay. but you should still HIT the target...dmg may not be good but at least you should hit better when sneak attacking
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2003 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DMG would be nonexistant if you can't even get past armor. The only thing that this doesn't cover would be on-hit effects like dispel and such, indeed. Hmm, might have to ponder this one.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2003 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yeah, thats exactly my point: there is pretty good dmg bonus at the time, but the attack bonus isnt really what it should be...you should hit almost always when you sneak attack the first time...only your reflexes should be allowed to save you then...
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Adario
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2003 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

more attack bonus and im very happy with this icon_twisted.gif
Dmg is what it is. Its good against armored guys, not so good against people without armor (in a realistic-way), but that would be hard to do...there are lots of non-realistic things in this game, thi is not the worst.

Just think about the attack bonus or something... icon_wink.gif
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2003 1:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why would sneak attacks need to be more powerful at all? If I am correct, the normal DnD rules are used, and thus there don't need to be any changes. If you were to give it an instant kill option, it would be entirely stupid, because a lot of assassinations don't work like that. Yes, there is the slitting throat bit, but it requires extreme precision and stealth for that, and the target needs to be totally unprepared, so in any case, it would need to have something of a -15 attack penalty(look at power attack, -5 for +5, and -10 for +10) And that would even be extremely gullable. Moreover, there is a very high chance that you would fail top get in that situation AT ALL, and there is even less of a chance that you would actually be able to kill someone, because of armor, or resistances or even regeneration. So NO no increase in sneak attacks of any kind.
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Adario
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2003 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

you dont get attack bonus when sneak atacking, but the victims ac drops, right? how much? and is it is only the dodge ac bonus what dropps? do you mean all dodge ac bonus, what you get from mobility and dodge-feats and the dodge-bonus what you get from like boots of sun sould+5? or is it just another ac dodge bonus? which one?
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2003 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Uck, not so many questions, all of the dodge ac bonuses drop, ALL OF THEM. Not just some, every single one. But the system is bugged, you shouldn't lose your dodge bonus when you have noticed a sneaking character, but since you arent attacking him, you do. Like so many other Bioware things, it is bugged.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2003 2:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

::TP, the only P&P nerd here comes to the rescue::

actually, in PnP if you haven't acted in battle (drawn a weapon or otherwise turned and readied against your foe) you are still considered flat footed (Dex + dodge bonuses drop, sneak attacks are able to be done). Mobility isn't a +4 to AC at all times, it is only during attacks of oppertunity (running away, usually). sneak attacks in NwN work in EXACTLY the same way as they should in PnP. this means QUIT YOUR WHINING OR GET SOME CHEESE.
cuz it's all been discussed Before
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2003 8:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, it should be TP, the only DnD PnP nerd, i only play ADnD and made the assumption that it was bugged, which, if you think about it, isn't such a weird assumption at all. Anyway, i think the rules of PnP are wrong at that point, but hey, I didn't make the rules.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2003 10:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"goes to eat cheese" icon_wink.gif
hey! theres much protein in cheese! you should eat it if you want your muscles to grow icon_lol.gif
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Little Teapot
PostFri 01/31/03 11:13pm
or if you want to grow fat, there's more of that in there than protien...  Reply with quote
 
Adario
PostSat 02/01/03 8:58am
hehee, im not going to be fat even if i just sitted playing in dyso and eating cheese 24/7 for a year...thats impossible  Reply with quote
 
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2003 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

indeed, ac should not be taken into account. quote "rogues study the weakness of their opponents, and are acapable of capitalizing on this knowledge with their deadly sneak attacks". obviously a rogue won't aim for the armor rite?
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2003 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ofcourse not, but it is kind of hard not to, when you have an opponent that is totally covered in Full Plate armor. So it should be taken into account. The problem i have with the sneak attacks, is that rogues have sneak attacks when they are in combat, and there opponent is too(meaning: a battle of mayeb 4 people, and the rogue keeps getting sneaks. Also, i once saw a duel, and the rogue actually got sneak attacks while it was a duel!!!)
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Adario
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2003 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yeah, its stupid that tere is no difference between the first and the other sneak attacks...the first one should be a backstabb, the others just weaker sneak attacks. The first one should be very powered, the others not so good. icon_twisted.gif
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2003 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

well, lag does really throw one into a long period of being flat-footed. however, beside during when there's a lag, u can deal sneak attack whenever the opponent is flat-footed.

when u r casting spell, u have to CONCENTRATE on your casting, thus making urself open.

in a battle of multiple people, you weren't paying attention to the rogue as u r busily engaged in a battle with another opponent.

prehaps a penalty should be given to ac(need not the total ac from the armor), yet u still retain the ac from ur dex mod.

but i dun think this can be done, as it's in the scripting in the program not the mod rite?
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2003 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AC is ARMOR class
if you have amulets of natural armor, your skin is tougher, making it harder to damage you enough (when you're hit) to actually hurt you. you're implyibg, that when you're not paying attention in battle, your armor is somehow softer and less effective at stopping blows than when you're paying attention, but, for some odd reasonb, you can still dodge the people as if you were prepared for the attack... it's crap when you see it my way, quit whining! you get a single attack as powerful as fireball for free!!! jesus....
have some cheese with your whine icon_lol.gif
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Matthijs says:
   oh ja, ik weet het zonet nog niet
Matthijs says:
   het ziet er toch wel een beetje naar uit dat we nederlands praten
Matthijs says:
   mischien moet ik dan maar eens vaker nederlands gaan praten
Matthijs says:
   kan je me ook meteen niet op al mijn spellinsfouten wijzen
There you have it! indisputable proof Solo's a fascist!!!
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Nefiorim
PostSat 02/01/03 5:32pm
Single attack? Usually a single entire round.. (= roughly 5 or 6 attacks, when done right of course).  Reply with quote
 
Little Teapot
PostSat 02/01/03 5:33pm
even better  Reply with quote
 
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