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Death and Taxes
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Aronthal
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2003 10:58 pm    Post subject: Death and Taxes Reply with quote

As a relative newcomer to the dyso world, I would like to throw in my unwanted opinions about the 3.x system. icon_smile.gif

I think the move to the new death/exp/monetary systems was a good one, at least in principle. However I feel that the system has a few flaws that could cause the reverse intent of what the changes were introduced for in the first place.


Death: Ok death should be feared. Death should be avoided. But, death in Dyso is also inevitable. Spending two hours to build up your experience only to have your work erased because a troll got lucky, or the lag got ya, or whatever, is a little too harsh. My opinion is that dyso is a game, and not everyone has the time to spend hours upon hours playing the game, and it is only going to push people away from dyso when such a harsh penalty is happening on a regualr basis. Does having a death system that is a little less harsh inhibit roleplaying? I can't see how that would be the case.


Money and the economy: There is a lot more to making a robust economy than just lowering the trade in value of equipment. Adjustments to the item drop tables and a true trading system amongst other things are needed in order to sustain the balance. As it stands now it will not take long for the majority of players to max out their level (15?) and also max out on the equipment they can use. When that happens we will be back to 2.x. Also the system as it stands is heavily biased twoards certain character types. As a monk I have almost never found anything that can be of use, nor has anyone else I would wager. So, I can't buy second hand merchandise off of other characters, which puts me well behind the curve because I have to pay full retail prices at the one or two merchants that even sell monk gear. I suspect that other character types suffer from this unbalanced item drop system as well. Perhaps this may be more realisitc, but it also discourages diversity.

I am certain the counter argument is that these changes were introduced to encourage roleplaying and to discourage powergaming; and I support that endeavor entirely. However my experience so far is that roleplaying has diminished. Even the most ardent roleplayers are rushing off to do some hunting to gain exp and money. I hardly ever see anyone sitting in the inn and talking, or sitting around the fountain and talking. The reality is that there is not a whole heck of a lot to do in dyso, at the present, other than hunting. Perhaps there is more roleplaying in these hunting expeditions, in fact I have been involved is some very entertaining ones. But there are only so many ways to creatively roleplay hunting trolls or kuo before it gets boring.

I have more to say, but I will wait to see what kind of reaction this recieves first. icon_smile.gif
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Malakalam
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2003 12:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

I hardly ever see anyone sitting in the inn and talking, or sitting around the fountain and talking.


I don't have time to sit and talk to people anymore. I have to hunt so I can be at a comparable level to everyone else so that my character can be arrogent without being suicidal.
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Shin2k
PostWed 03/26/03 6:25am
Yup Yup,  Reply with quote
 
pyrosmurfs
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2003 7:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Malakalam wrote:
Quote:

I hardly ever see anyone sitting in the inn and talking, or sitting around the fountain and talking.


I don't have time to sit and talk to people anymore. I have to hunt so I can be at a comparable level to everyone else so that my character can be arrogent without being suicidal.



I 2nd this noation
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ShadowCore
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2003 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't. I try to talk as much as I can. Even when adventuring..so it isn't impossible. Ofcourse,. because of that, I'm still on Eastern Isle after a couple of weeks..
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Uin
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2003 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Death in dyso is not harsh enough. XP wise it seemed OK from testing (I have yet to die since it has gone live, not after lvl 3 anyway), but you should drop a large percentage of gold, 50%+ perhaps. I mean is that too much to ask after being brought back to life from death?
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2003 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Uin you havent died yet??

PLEASE DIE!!! Just die three times on a day, then we'll hear how you think bout that... !!!! *insane laughter* Damn Im flaming? icon_mrgreen.gif
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Kindo
PostWed 03/26/03 1:42pm
Spent 10 hours playing. Got some nice exp, was on a good way to next level. Died once, back to zero.  Reply with quote
 
ShadowCore
PostWed 03/26/03 1:53pm
With the low amount of gold you can get, the death penalties are FINE. I don't want to pay even more when dying, and the XP penalty is good.  Reply with quote
 
Kindo
PostWed 03/26/03 1:57pm
12 hours straight of extreme roleplaying.  Reply with quote
 
ShadowCore
PostWed 03/26/03 1:58pm
Hurray for Kindo, but that's almost as sick as Lucifer...  Reply with quote
 
Griff Inn
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2003 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Uin wrote:
Death in dyso is not harsh enough. XP wise it seemed OK from testing (I have yet to die since it has gone live, not after lvl 3 anyway), but you should drop a large percentage of gold, 50%+ perhaps. I mean is that too much to ask after being brought back to life from death?


You have got to be joking! I think the death system is completely screwed up. Have you any idea how demoralising it is to build up a decent amount of xp, only to lose half or all of it because you died once? Things like this are driving me away. I mean where is the enjoyment in that? Itís not easy for rogues especially, unless they multi class. There should be more ways to get xp by roleplay, and not hacking at the nearest bandit or kua toa. After all this is a roleplay server right?

But okay letís give Uinís idea a bit of thought. Maybe we should have harsher penalties on death. I have given some thought to this, and came up with a good method of dealing with death:

1.On dying you lose 200,000 xp and all your gold. Not only that, but your level is wiped back to 1.
2.After your 5 minute waiting period, and you are forced to respawn, you get sent to everyoneís favorite holiday resort, the Fugal Plane. W00t!
3.There, you will meet a badger of death, who has 1000 ac, 10000000hp, +5000 attack bonus, and is immune to everything you throw at it. Furthermore, he doesnít like you and will kill you in one hit with his 200d10 badger claw.
4.When he kills you, you are booted from the server and perma-banned.
5.A virus is then sent to your comp that destroys your computerís registry, and then your computer spontaneously implodes.
6.The badger then decides to pay you a visit in real life, and beats you up until you canít move.
7.He then h4xes your bank account and steals all your money.
8.Finally, he pees on your head and then casts finger of death on you and you die.

Hurrah! I think Iíve cracked it! icon_biggrin.gif

Okay seriously, the death penalties should be lowered as they are too harsh. Make it like it used to be, I preferred that system.

And what happened to the afterlife when you die? I was rather looking forward to fighting my way through hell in order to get back to the prime material plane. That would have been fun but oh well.

And Uin you seem to be forgetting that this is a game first and foremost. And games are there to entertain you. And losing half or all of what you've worked for in a game isn't exactly entertaining now is it?

Griff
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Aronthal
PostWed 03/26/03 4:42pm
My humble opinion is that there should be a greedy experience system, or a stiff death penalty, but not both. One of them needs to loosen up.  Reply with quote
 
ShadowCore
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2003 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, I have to agree with Griff that we need an afterlife. But I don't agree on very harsh death penalties, perhaps the XP penalty could be harsher, but that's where I draw the line. Level1-3 will be completely and utterly traumatic if you do that. They are quite hard for a non-fighter(an don't tell me about belts, because they aren't infallable either).
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Nei
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2003 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually I have to agree with Uin here, but also with Griff, if that is even possible. Death is still weaker than I wanted it to be. As far as I'm concerned death should rape your character pretty hard, but I also think it should be lessened or negated by a rez. For evidence that the penalty for death isn't high enough how many of you have fought a troll at 5th level or so? *raises hand* Now would this be happening if you lost say an entire level for oding this, or all exp back down to a level with a minimum of say 500 or 1000 exp? Hell no!

But also like Griff said, we really need some decent way to get exp other than fighting. The only problem is that people abuse everything, and cannot remember that this is only a game and we're here to have fun, not to abuse it. I have been involved in a number of DM events, but they still almost always invilve killing something. And some DM events I have to question. I was with a group of level 10 and below halflings and a level 15 halfling and this thing started casting wail of the banshee at us! This just rapes the experience of everybody, to make it even worse there were probably 10 of us, only 2 survived if I remember correctly.

Anyhow, in conclusion some balance has to be struck here. Death should be utterly painful, but also there need to be ways of gaining exerience without getting yourself killed.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2003 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes but were here for fun and its not like we can pick up charactors and carry them to town to see the local preist to bring them back like we can when were gaming in real life the way it is now dont really bother me i think its fare with the loosing the Xp the gold wouldnt bother me as much if it wasnt so hard to get gold even after buying soming for 8k and only get 169 gold back for it i think for something under 10k and higher than 2k you should at least get 500 gold back i think that would be a fare bargin and something around 1k you should get atleast around 300gd for it but the only thing that bugs me is the wait to respawn i think that could be alittle faster i understand the wait but its starting to seem longer and longer each time we die and i think that will only start running off new ppl to the mod it already seems we lost alot of other players i dont see half the players we used to . i would sudgest maybe a minute or two that would give sometime to lye around dead but not be so long that your getting bord and the Xp and gold is hitting us enough to not want die . But im not trying to be picky about the mod or say i dont enjoy it becuase i do thats why i congrats the people that put hard work into this Mod and keep it fun for us the players thats why im only saying this to bring it to your attention that these things might run some ppl off and then it would only be me playing hmmmm that dont sound to bad i could be king of the little ppl then hehe ok well keep up the good work c ya
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2003 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with Nei, death penalty is to forgiving. I mean, I don't care about dying sure the 5 minutes penalty is annoying but then again, gives me time to eat icon_wink.gif. The xp and gold penal are pretty small as well, I mean you can easily get both back, and in my opinion thats a small price to pay, like Uin said you're being brought back from death! Ofcourse one does need to be able to get more xp by other ways then bashing. (by the way I find the xp system of nwn to be very weird in every sence, why do you get better at lock picking if you manage to kill a giant monster??)
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Snares
PostThu 03/27/03 8:20pm
Can we get xp for dying instead and gold while waiting to respawn? icon_lol.gif  Reply with quote
 
Malakalam
PostThu 03/27/03 8:24pm
I want to see perma death!

heh, I bet Nel would have a lot more friends if death were permanent.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2003 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, when I DM'ed in PnP, the penalty for Death wasn't a loss of very much XP at all (maybe like 10/level), but the person's stats would suffer enormously for awhile unless they were given a full resurrection. Of course, they also dropped everything that was on them - I mean EVERYTHING (c'mon you DIED, as in, your body dropped on the ground).

I think that if we could come up with a way to make somebody lose everything they were carrying when they died, but not have their corpse be lootable by anyone but them (because people whine so much about lootable corpses - and with good reason sometimes, since there are too many people who like to play this game just to PK), that might work. But then, if the server crashed, you'd be up a creek! I guess this would only be workable in Rebirth. As in, you die, your body and everything you had on you at the time (including all your gold!) and it's location would be saved, so if the server rebooted it would still be there. Then maybe you could pray at a temple to get some of your stuff back. Hmmm.....

Now THAT, I think, would make people afraid of dying! icon_twisted.gif
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Malakalam
PostThu 03/27/03 8:26pm
either that or make them afraid of traveling more than 5 min from a rift gate  Reply with quote
 
Falkhor
PostFri 03/28/03 1:32pm
Try dying in pvp areas with some rogues around ....SCARY!  Reply with quote
 
Uin
PostFri 03/28/03 1:57pm
The 5 min wait is a bit bizarre, 5 min in a fugue area would make more sense.  Reply with quote
 
Falkhor
PostFri 03/28/03 7:18pm
Not really. Kill someone in real life, yu'd be amazed how long their body would be lying there to rot...  Reply with quote
 
ShadowCore
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 28, 2003 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heh, I agree with Falkhor...

But any kind of afterlife would be very nice icon_biggrin.gif
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 28, 2003 7:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think both would be the best situation. Die and leave a lootable carry-able corpse. Your soul passes on to some fugue plane. When you're there you have the choice to wait around in oblivon to get raised or you can pass on to the afterlifes that dyso will have in the future again. Upon getting raised or managing to escape the afterlifes on your own you appear in the spot where your corpse is and get everything that wasn't looted back in your inventory.
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Nei
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 28, 2003 10:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That actually sounds like a great idea. Of course people will oppose if because they know their corpse id going to get lloted, btu maybe that'll make them think twice about dying, or travelling alone. This rule would make the halflings of Dysotopia even stronger, so I must support it! icon_smile.gif
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 28, 2003 10:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I give you haflings everything... my items my gold my time... and you still keep asking for money... bah no respect for someone like me rotz.gif
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blane firebrand
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2003 12:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ok the death penalties are really unbalanced here i think. ok make it where you lose alot if you die but make it possible to gain alot as well. make any sense? if a low lvl guy is trying to rp he has to do it in elerina just so some other idiot doesnt miscast a spell and kill him off and he loses all he worked for. and then theres the ones that kill you just because you cant do anything about it. either make it possible to get more xp or make the xp penalty in death alot lighter. as far as the money penalty goes thats fine in my opinion but i can easily spend a whole day in dyso and rp mostly and get xp some or even get xp alot since its so hard to come by and then die once and have accomplished nothing........is that fun???? i didnt think so so please fix it or lose more people since im tired of others asking me and my friends to go to this other server since it is actually fun.......
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2003 12:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hm, I don't know on which other "RP" servers you people used to play, but on those I know, the death penalty was harder than it is on Dyso NOW (only difference: ressurection would avoid the penalty, but only ressurection by a cleric, not some stupid scroll or wand and no raise)
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