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Nice hostility, devs!

 
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Kindo
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2003 11:02 am    Post subject: Nice hostility, devs! Reply with quote

Über-hardass who won't let the players come with any suggestions whatsoever if it's something that isn't in perfect alignment with what the dev-crew was thinking on the subject wrote:
When someone is designing their own module they can appoint whomever the hell they want to set up this or that or run this or that. Last time I looked Griff and I were working on Har-Rhun and Uin has done a damn lot of hours of testing and such. I don't give a rats-ass who might have a better idea or whatever, I'll appoint whomever the hell I want to appoint. This applies to some other stuff we're working on ... the folks who have been sticking it out and playtesting ... we're gonna be more receptive to their ideas and suggestions.


I knew you guys had changed, but I didn't expect something like this. This is not the only thing I've noticed, there are several others. But you guys (developers-uberawesome-can never be wrong-if you don't agree we'll lock all topics), don't seem to accept any suggestions at all from the players. It's all about the crew. If a player comes with a suggestion, you immediately take it as an insult and go crap-ass on them all.

The forums seem pretty much useless to keep if this is the way things go. Maybe you should close it down? Or atleast make a statement saying "If you have any suggestions on improving certain aspects, or the mod as a whole, keep it to yourselves, cuz we're not going to even consider any damn ideas that your little pea-brains might have for OUR MODULE! So take your crappy ideas and suggestions, and shove em up your stinking useless-player assholes."
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PostTue 09/23/03 11:45am
My padawans learn well.  Reply with quote
 
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2003 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

People can suggest all they like ... we may use some of it (and we have) or we may not. Sometimes it depends on what we had in mind overall and the idea not fitting, sometimes it's something else ... but underneath all that is the point that there are people who are playing it and testing it all the time and there are those who sit on the sidelines and expect this or that just because they said so. We're going to listen more to the ones who have been playing it because they have a better idea of what has been done so far. We won't do everything they suggest, either, but at least they are making a more educated assessment.

The funny thing is, one of the people back a ways in this thread introduced themselves to the module by telling me in DM chat that the module was weak and if I wanted to make it good, I needed to listen to them and do what they told me to do. Riiiiight. Sorry, I have not undertaken my end of this project to just do what someone else tells me to do.

I said from the beginning the idea of "player developed module" was not something I was interested in, and for that above reason. I am not spending time in the toolset to set up stuff for a slew of people who expect me to do things all their way and complain when it doesn't match exactly what they wanted. I'm not against people making suggestions and constructive criticism, but when it comes right down to it the people who do the heavy lifting get to make the calls on just what is used and what is not.

Some will say something along the lines of "well you may be making the module but this is 'our' community." This is very true ... and along the same lines the "existing community" has dysfunctional aspects to it and thus I feel no guilt in pruning out aspects of that community which I don't care to deal with. I do so by dealing with and supporting those who are being constructive and supportive to the concept as a whole. If that means a bunch of old Dysoers throw their hands up and scream and run away ... so be it ... they were never the target audience for the project anyhow. If you want Dyso ... then by all means play Dyso, it's there, Bri would appreciate your support.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2003 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We have heard the suggestions. There is an entire forum section devoted to ideas and suggestions. What they do not want is a pissing match between their players on who can do something better. Uin stuck it out and helped them, so he gets first crack at designing the area. What is so hard to swallow about that?

Personally, I thought Z and Zant were out of line asking that Uin be bumped off the project. When Griff came forward and stated why Uin was getting the nod, those two persisted in pissing and moaning about it. It does not matter one fucking bit what the Tuskan history of Druids is, or what guild items they have. That is Tuskan, not HR. They are two different modules that will just happen to share the same character vault. Different modules have different devs and have different views on the way things should be set up.

It was not an "immediate" reaction by Conrad. There was more than one post about Druids, and they both turned into sand kicking contests, so they were locked. When those who started the threads can come up with some constructive ideas to help the devs instead of whining and crying because it isnt being done their way, then I am sure the devs will listen and evaluate.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2003 1:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Nice hostility, devs! Reply with quote

Kindo wrote:
Or atleast make a statement saying "If you have any suggestions on improving certain aspects, or the mod as a whole, keep it to yourselves, cuz we're not going to even consider any damn ideas that your little pea-brains might have for OUR MODULE! So take your crappy ideas and suggestions, and shove em up your stinking useless-player assholes."
So when is demanding something be done a suggestion. Suggestions are one thing, proclaiming that "I'm the voice of the players and I demand this" is something totally different. There is a place for suggestions and what nots, it's called the "Idea Mill", not the "Demands Made Here Mill". If you have a cool idea, then great, if Conrad and Griff or Fooz, Falk, and Zed like it, then they'll use it, if not, it'll get tossed by the wayside. It's as simple as that. If they toss your idea, that doesn't give anyone the right to start a forums war and declare themselves as "the voice of the community." As I've said before, this isn't going to be run like Dysotopia was, in that everytime an admin pissed off a player, an entire community war was brought up. I'll be quick to remove such sources of trouble before they get outta hand.
And, uh Kindo, where is you character on the server? From what I'm seeing, you aren't even playing the game. So basically you are simply here to troll the forums. Perhaps your account should also be one that I watch from now on?
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2003 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kindo wrote:
But you guys don't seem to accept any suggestions at all from the players.


This sentence got me terribly frustrated. Have you even bothered looking at the forums recently?! There are plenty of examples where players like sep and others have made constructive criticism and suggestions to something in the module, we have agreed with what they have said, and changed it accordingly.

As Gorb has said, one thing we can't stand are demands. People come here and think that their ideas are the only way to make things work, they are right, everyone else is wrong, and we'd better do what they say or else the module will be shit.

And the above comment comes from someone who doesn't even play NWN, let alone Har-Rhun. How can you possibly make a remark like that?
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2003 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My point about that post... there was none. I just felt I needed to vent about the crap I've seen here lately. Are there any suggestions you've accepted at all? To me, it looks like you've taken a crap on every single one that has been brought up, and it's always ended with something along the lines of "This is our module, and we do what the fuck we want, so go to hell you fuckasses, you're not on the developers so your opinions and ideas are worth shit."

Oooh, ooh! Aaaw, that's right, I'm not playing this game anymore, so I guess I'm not allowed to share my observations with anyone. I guess I'm worth just as much as the players... nothing. You know what I think? I think you should ban everyone on the forums who isn't a member of the all-mighty, megacool developer-team. Because they are all out spewing crap anyway.

I've noticed so many changes in the players whom I considered my friends... They've all become so goddamn self-righteous and uber-might ("I know best, because IIIIIII'''mmmmm on the developer teeeaaam! So you're wrong, and I'm right. Ooh it feels so good to be on the developer team, I'm someone really important now. All I have to do now is keep this up and be against everything those commoners (the players) say."), it's true... goddamn besserwissers most of them have become.

Great friendship, as soon as you became "someone important", it's all crap you and crap you, I'm big and important now.

You can all go and suck a fuck.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2003 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

And the above comment comes from someone who doesn't even play NWN, let alone Har-Rhun. How can you possibly make a remark like that?

Ooooh yeah.... Kindo the commmoner, Kindo the lowlife, Kindo the not-even-playing-guy has said something stupid. Might have to ban him, right guys? Yeah, he's quite useless to us. Not that he mattered in the first place... he was just a player back then, now he's not even that. Go away, Kindo. We don't want you hear, and we've always hated you anyway. Especially since WE became DEVELOPERS... yeah that's right, we're damn important now, and you're not. I can't be seen in public talking to someone as useless as you.
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PostTue 09/23/03 3:36pm
Kindo, what the hell are you on? Seriously, you are taking this far over the edge here.  Reply with quote
 
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2003 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It must be his time of the month....

But for my two cents;

Lately I have been noticing a LOT of cooperation with the new modules, and I'm finding that I am liking it more and more. For the longest time after dyso I was drawn away from NWN because I couldn't find anything good. So far from the work that has been done and from what I have seen, this mod is going to be one of the best mods ever. Not just because its good, but because of the cooperation of all the players. I think we're doing an excellent job. It's like I was always told.... if you don't like it, leave! icon_wink.gif

But aside from that, I don't want to see you go Kindo! I still love you! emot-heartbeat.gif
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2003 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, Im about to be banned, so Ill make this quick.

Thanks to most of you who made me stay with this community so long.
Dont really care what happens to my work with the Tuskandale Druids Circle.

Thanks especially to Falk, Kindo, Zantia and Norrec.

Bye all.

and WHY THE HELL DID YOU BAN KINDO??? He is MUCH more popular than me and gets banned for expressing himself in the COMPLIANTS forum. God, you guys have sunk.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2003 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nah i think they locked it to prevent it becoming a "pissing contest"

but you can always feel free to come in here and piss everywhere you want...write your name on tha wall icon_biggrin.gif

OR you can just start a new topic up about tha same thing..only with a post more civil and calm then tha post that ended tha original topic
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2003 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You know, Kindo does have a point here, but I can also seek Conrad and Griff's side too.

Backing up Kindo, the devs here do seem to have a stick up their ass at times. They rarely ever tell the players that they appreciate their comments, althought I cannot say anything about implementation because I've only played Har-Rhun a couple of times. The over all attitude is very much like superior beings talking down to lowlife peasantry instead of as equals or friends, but that's their perogative.

As for the side of Griff and Conrad, I definitely see how they would dismiss certain ideas that they do not feel are consistant with their ideas for the mod, and instead of continuing along the same topic, they simply end it when a final decision.

The straightforward approach to dismissing a topic is very effective, but it often leaves the player who suggested the change with a bitter taste in his mouth. I think that perhaps a bit more explination at times, and less of the "We are superior to you in every way" approach may be helpful. After all what good is developing a mod if you chase off all of your players? Just my humble opinion though.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2003 7:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Backing up Kindo, the devs here do seem to have a stick up their ass at times. They rarely ever tell the players that they appreciate their comments, althought I cannot say anything about implementation because I've only played Har-Rhun a couple of times. The over all attitude is very much like superior beings talking down to lowlife peasantry instead of as equals or friends, but that's their perogative.


Well see, that's the thing... most of the moderators don't have TIME to give replies to certain things. First off, I can damn well guarantee that developing a mod takes an uber uber crapload of time. It's hard when (for example, like me) you are going to school full-time, working full-time, and trying to have somewhat of a personal life OUTSIDE of the mod. Considering how far its advanced in such little time, I have to say that they are doing a god damned fine good job.

If you want to hear from them on a more personal basis, contact them through PM or AIM or Email, or SOME other way than the forums. They do listen!
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2003 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Ok, Uin shouldnt be in charge of the druids guild. This is mainly because of the fact that he's a new druid, and therefore unfamilar with our ways...say, if we worship gods or not.

I would be happy to design the druids guild. I belive the suppost of othere druids is with me, as of course we all dislike Uin's new guild. - that is to say we dont like any of the ideas that he's told us so far.

Any agreeing druid please post here too

Zan


This is the wrong way to start a suggestion thread. It set the tone for the entire thread as being hostile and PvP instead of Idea v Idea.
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PostTue 09/23/03 7:04pm
*cough* Zantia is also the one who was talking to Conrad about the mod sucking...*cough*  Reply with quote
 
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2003 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nei wrote:
Backing up Kindo, the devs here do seem to have a stick up their ass at times. They rarely ever tell the players that they appreciate their comments, althought I cannot say anything about implementation because I've only played Har-Rhun a couple of times. The over all attitude is very much like superior beings talking down to lowlife peasantry instead of as equals or friends, but that's their perogative.
It's not so much an instant stick up the ass attitude. Usually, that type of reply is brought in after it's made clear that that's the only way someone will understand something or after the "do it my way or you guys suck" comments start to come. If you look at the beginning of the MOD Integration topic, you'll see exactly what I mean. I answered the questions asked by Z, Griff popped in to answer questions I couldn't, and that should have been the end of it. But instead, it tuns into this "do it my way, or screw it all, and oh yeah, you guys suck too" topic. This isn't going to be tolerated in the least bit. As I've said now, too many times to count, ideas and suggestions are one thing, demands, silly name calling (Z) and pointless and uncalled for whining (Kindo) is another.

Nei wrote:
As for the side of Griff and Conrad, I definitely see how they would dismiss certain ideas that they do not feel are consistant with their ideas for the mod, and instead of continuing along the same topic, they simply end it when a final decision.

The straightforward approach to dismissing a topic is very effective, but it often leaves the player who suggested the change with a bitter taste in his mouth. I think that perhaps a bit more explination at times, and less of the "We are superior to you in every way" approach may be helpful. After all what good is developing a mod if you chase off all of your players? Just my humble opinion though.
See, you're really only seeing parts of the ideas flowing here, maybe that's a partial problem, due to IM's and PM's, but that is simply the fastest and most personal means on communication. It takes time to filter through above mentioned useless posts. Most devs that I know, are much more partial to a quick suggestion in the forums, and then following up via faster and personal methods. But again, some of this comes back to the difference between ideas and suggestions, and an outright "we're going to have it this way and if you don't, then screw off" attitude. That's not only counter productive, it also puts a bad taste in the admins mouths and typically get's that troublemaker either ignored or harassed in future posts. And eventually, the troublemaker get either annoyed or pissed with this and leaves (,in the case of Z) or get's him/herself banned by saying something WAY outta line (,in the case of Kindo and Jon316.) I can tell you, being just the player in other types of community is sometimes frustrating, but being self-ritous, demanding, or just being a prick to get the point across to an admin or dev is really only going to guarantee one thing. Leaving. To me, it just makes much more sense being tactful, informative, and understanding when dealing with devs and admins.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2003 11:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know what you're saying Gorb and I agree with you, but the feelings I get in these forums make me feel less wanted, less interested, and less likely to give a rats ass what goes on with the mod. I can only tell you what I'm feeling, and I kinda doubt these are the feelings wanted by potential players. When I responded to this thread I was not solely talking about the durid threads, those were handled rather poorly by the players. However, the atmosphere in these forums here hardly feels constructive, infact I feel unwanted as a player, like I'm an undue burden on the Devs. Maybe I've been spoiled in the past month or maybe it's because they don't want it to be anything close to player run, but as of now, outside of bug reports I get the feeling that any additional input is frivolous. I only recently began posting on these forums again, and already I'm seeing why I quit in the first place. Anyhow, I'm not trying to sound rude or pissy, I'm merely offering my feeling on this issue. I think a few "Good idea"'s or "We liek your idea but whatdo you think about..." Or even, we considered your idea, but we don't think it'll fit into the mod at this time, perhapos we'll work on that in the future." These are all alot more positive than "Sorry, this is my mod, and what I say goes, and I'm not doing this and that's final" or "When you build your mod you can do what you like with it". Furthermore, I feel that this barrier between the devs and the players really builds up frusteration and hostile posts are released off of it. I think Griff should remember what that was like. It's when Devs/Mods/Dms don't listen that people lash out. And even if you are listening, which I'm sure you are at least in part, then just let people know that you are. Well, that's all I have to say on the subject really, and it's the primary reason I've rarely stepped foot onto Har-Rhun, I simply feel unwanted.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2003 12:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I dunno... maybe its just me, but are people not reading everything that others post? Clearly there is a great deal of response from the mods.

I took the liberty of showing you just a few in case you 'didn't see them.'

http://dyso.joelpt.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6161
http://dyso.joelpt.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6153
http://dyso.joelpt.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5970
http://dyso.joelpt.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6129
http://dyso.joelpt.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6037
http://dyso.joelpt.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5946

Dunno about you, but I still feel wanted and respected.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2003 12:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The last thing I want to happen is the devs to ignore the players. The moment that happens I will quit the project. I know that this is not the case, we listen to what the players suggest and if people would just spend more than 5 minutes in these forums they would realise that.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2003 4:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since I'm the Ubermensch jackboot-wearing dev-type person, I figure I'd throw in this observation ... people were conditioned, previously, that the best way around these forums was to ask for what you wanted, and when you didn't get it, begin a pitched battle of words and actions until you got what you wanted because the devs would inevitably buckle to shut you up.

That's not going to happen now, because my take on it is that as soon as you get into that rant and moan mode, you've disqualified yourself as being reasonable and if we've said no, we said no and that's that. We do listen to ideas and suggestions, we do appreciate the huzzahs and such (but also realize that not everyone will do so and don't overly EXPECT it ... similarly, we sorta expect the players to realize we are not always going to get into detailed discussions on the whys and what-nots for everything), and we try to mold the suggestions and ideas into what we have in mind to the best of our ability when possible. Invariably, however, some ideas aren't right for what we are working on at the moment, or some other consideration. Just because we didn't use it immediately doesn't mean it doesn't show up later ... sometimes we may take a suggestion into development and not really say much about it in here ... it just will show up.

Anyhow ... it's going to take some time for some people to relearn their interpersonal skills in dealing with problem issues around here. What has been said about the difference between suggestions and constructive criticism and making demands has been pretty much spot on. The beat them till they buckle approach is going to prove fruitless because I honestly don't care if that means I start ignoring everyone. It won't come to that as there are already plenty here I don't ignore ... but new additions get made to the "disregard" pile all the time. I said a long time ago that this project wasn't going to appeal to many of the core Dyso people because it's not going to be a case where everyone can just walk up to a shop and buy whatever the hell they want. Certain classes, alignments and other things like deity will all factor into who can get what "easily" ... but the bulk of it, you're just gonna have to go out and find somewhere (i.e. in most cases get lucky with a loot spawn), or bargain with someone who has found what you want. The levels are slower and you can't get to 20 in a couple hours ... in fact you probably can't get to 20 inside of a couple weeks, it'll take longer.

The effect of all this randomizes quite a bit of the aspects of the game because there is not much of a "sure thing" path to follow on character construction ... drives many of the power gamers crazy when they can't just buy a golden circlet and thus get annoyed when those mind-spells keep screwing up their 8 wisdom character. Or that you need to be able to persuade your way into a particular situation and you can't because you have an 8 charisma and so on and so forth. Sure you can still take the PGer approach and hope you find the necessary immunities for "uberness" but there are no guarantees.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2003 1:02 pm    Post subject: Hmm. Reply with quote

Well, just stopping in to say a brief hello before I leave once again, I got referred to this topic by a friend and since some obnoxiously obnoxious administrators took it upon themselves to delete my other accounts, I'll keep this short so I don't wear out my welcome.


"Don't argue or fight, don't bother fighting the government, you will simply cease to be."

In other words, while I might agree with Kindo, it's completely pointless to fight with any of the administrators on this site, (I.E. Conrad/Gorb) so don't. Simply leave, say a short goodbye and go. You'll save them headaches and everyone else headaches as well, no one wants to hear you whine, so get some balls and take it like a man, you are completely worthless unless you prove you are a person who's ideas and values are here to contribute and not corrupt.

I was a little angry when I got backstabbed and betrayed by the people here, I had figured all along in my personal case I was completely "expendable" and I was, I had no rights to anything. While I might have contributed a few things to the module such as scripts, no one really wanted to do anything with me, so thus I lost my value, and thus I was expendable. They betrayed me once, they'll not do it again. So I left and this time it is truly quits for now. I will not make myself look like an ass or a jerk by insulting the administrators. I know some of them personally, and they are outstanding people, they just simply don't want to have to deal with people in their work place, and so they don't.

I will not wear out my welcome, because in truth I might want to play here later on when the expansion comes out, until that time I find absolutely nothing of value that some place else hasn't accomplished... and so it is.


Good Day.

Coldly,
Ryld Argith.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2003 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with Fox here. I have had several of my suggestions make it into the game already, the most widely used one is probably the 1 min/level death penalty. All you need is a good idea and a pinch of tact to have an influence on the direction of the new mod. You catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

As Conrad called months ago, some people are not going to like how things are run, and some will love it. I for one am on the side that is very pleased with the way things are going. Some people wont like it, and they will leave. Some people will love it and tell their friends. I would love to see all my pals from Dyso/Ark in game for some good RP and HnS fun, but if they act like kids and make posts like the above person...well I can't say I will miss them. The people playing on HR now are a good group and I have fun playing with them.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2003 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And some won't like it and will slam their heads into a brick wall with negative posts and the like ... expecting to get it the way they do like it. I am not responsible for bloody foreheads and fractured craniums, they are self-inflicted.

An idea, a pinch of tact, and a decent concept behind the idea will generally get at the very LEAST a cursory look at a suggestion. Maybe it will be used, maybe it won't ... but if it isn't, it's not meant as an insult ... all ideas from everyone won't be used ... not even every idea I have or Griff has will probably make it in. When it comes to pass that an idea isn't used ... the proper approach is to let it be, not up the ante and argue about how foolish it is not to use that idea. Upping the ante will result in a) the idea probably never being used and b) the proposer of the idea being roundly ignored for any further suggestions.

Another word on something related but not on the same vein totally ... the module was opened up for people to get in there and playtest so we COULD get ideas on things and fix problems. Some of the people complaining the most in here about this or that are also some people who found bugs, exploits, cheats and such and then would not reveal what they were until they were pressured into doing so, in fact they were pretty much content to keep it to themselves otherwise. Don't you dare lecture us about betrayal and selfishness when you wear that sort of collar. Acting like that proves that you're just in it for what you can get out of it totally for yourself and really aren't in the least bit concerned with providing some insight to fix issues in the module code. At that point I don't care how much knowledge someone has about something pertaining to the game ... you pull crap like that and I have no use for you whatsoever ... go find a LV arena and get back to bashing in heads all day and stay out of our way.
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Marquis Drayfox
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2003 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I will not wear out my welcome, because in truth I might want to play here later on when the expansion comes out, until that time I find absolutely nothing of value that some place else hasn't accomplished... and so it is.


Heh... you wore out your welcome a looooooooong time ago. How many accounts is this now? 5? 6 maybe? Hmm......

Regardless... on top of what Conrad already said, I really don't see any reason to keep this thread going. Should we lockify?
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2003 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And with that, this topic has been locked. I think everyone's expressed their own opinion on things, and there is little need for anything else to be said. Please just remember that:

1. It's impossible for us to make everyone happy.
2. We accept suggestions with open arms, but not demands. If your suggestion gets the thumbs down, just let it slide and don't take it personally. Persisting will only makes things worse.
3. This is just a game. No need to lose friendships and get all melodramatic about it.
4. I hate playing the admin card, but ultimately what the admins say goes, whether you agree with us or not. You can accept this and we all get along much better, you can leave, or moan and bitch about it and we'll force you to leave. I'm sorry but there has to be some authority figures otherwise there will be absolute chaos and nothing will work. I've been on both sides of this argument at some point so I'm saying this from experience.
5. Being an admin certainly sounds good, but it does have its downsides.

Anyway I'll shut up now. Topic closed.
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