DysoForums

[Thargelion]

Last night we were having some fun dueling characters especially with the new SoU spells and feats. Fun was had by all... especially with AliZee and his bardic friend launching hit and run tactics instigating more than a few laughs from my direction.

Oh... but the complaint. With immunity to knockdown proliferating around the realms, fighters have lost their only competitive edge. The ability to knock over spellcasters (usually after already taking a few hits) and resist others from doing so with their high discipline.... high discipline. With Clerics being able to raise their abilities to those of a high level fighter, they gain the offensive abilities of such a champion. Great, I really see nothing wrong with that, it is a fair spell and because of the discipline issue they do not get the defensive benefits of being a fighter. The problem though is that when coupled with immunity to knockdown... this goes for any class to be honest, there is 'no' and I repeat 'no' reason to play a fighter.

The best means to resolve this is to declare immunity to knockdown items illegal. Toss them in the pools of destruction or feed them to the badgers. Then remove them from where they can be acquired and do not expect them as items that can be found.

Would anyone expect an item that grants 'Total Immunity to Divine or Arcane Magic'? I know people say 'lose the greater belts, lose the mind-spell resist...' these all have good arguments. Nothing though eliminates an entire class' usefulness like immunity to knockdown so these really should be removed.

[AliZee']

one question...if they were to get rid of tha tiems that had immunitys to knockdown..is there any skill that we could beef up that would make us less susceptible to it?? like with disarm theres discipline and such..is there one for knock down??
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[quote:076179584b="Ogt"]farts leave the athmosfere because they have their OWN WILL, they are TIRED of being farts, and decieded that they would make their OWN PLANETS!!!!!!!!!![/quote]
GOLD!!!

[Sep]

His bardic friend eh? hee hee

Anyway... to your point. Are you suggesting we edit the available items in Dyso for PvP balance?

I personally dont use knock-down immunity. Frankly, because I see no need for it, as no monster, save for a dragon once, I think, ever tried it against me. Besides, knockdown isn't the only feat a fighter, or whatever youre playing, can take. Why change the game just for arena-duels where the entire area is ooc and dying has no penalty?
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"Here comes Halfling death!"

[Little Teapot]

[Maelstrom696969]

Yes it does. If people don't want to get knocked down, they need to up their Discipline. Discipline for me is one of the only skills besides Spellcraft (and now Tumble) that I think is worth a spit for everyone in general.
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"Great warrior? Ah! Wars not make one great!"

[Darkshadow666]

I think that every class has it's advatages and disadvantages. The trick is to find what works against each particular opponent. Depending on what class I am dueling in the arena I adjust my items, spells, and tactics.

Thargelion...have you tried to disarm other classes as there is no immunity in PVP. That surely would have put a damper on anyone who relies on melee type fighting. For fighting spellscasters it's a tough one...I personally being a former Paly/Fighter was always spitting dirt out of my teeth when fighting spellcasters. It's just the way in the DND world. A friend mentioned this to me once (MerchanT)

----> Think of it this way you have trained your whole life as a fighter have to be the best fighter that you can be, and when you step into the ring with a Cleric you are stepping into an arena with someone who has been imbued or enhanced by a God with powers to smite those he sees fit. You in essence are fighting a person who can channel godly powers, and I think most would agree that a fighter should never be able to beat a god in combat.

Did you try called shot or improved disarm?
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Co-Creator of DragonsFall Mod

[AliZee']

i hate both of those feats...

[Sep]

Half-orcs have stinky feets.
Rancid breath that reeks of beets.
round their camp i began to snoop,
saw them all eating poop soup.
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"Here comes Halfling death!"

[AliZee']

i hate poop soup

[Maelstrom696969]

Actually I was thinking - now that Sneak Attack and Death Attack go into effect on someone who's "Knocked Down", I don't think the immunity to it should be removed. I mean, it's all the more dangerous now. A Fighter/Rogue (or /Assassin) or a team of these two could be very deadly.

My Monk/Rogue/Assassin sure as hell is (especially with Circle Kick).
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"Great warrior? Ah! Wars not make one great!"

[Thargelion]

This is more than regarding ooc duelling many characters do come into conflict that is part of the fun of dysotopia ... this means though that the item is not really fair. I realize that the spellcasting classes are certainly very dangerous to face as a fighter... but they should not be better at actually fighting in melee. If a spellcaster (or any class for that matter= wishes to be resistant to knockdown they should have to earn it through discipline. I have worked on cross class skills so I could gain benefit outside my area of expertise but I pay for it.

As for the fighter vs a god... well we should think of Clerics as Saints, they are not the avatars of their gods. They never have been invincible except with this irregular combination to melee characters of comparable level... 20th level characters should all be able to excel in their respective fields. Lets face the reality, with immunity to knockdown in place there is not a reason to take a fighter class. What it comes down to is that... with immunity to knockdown, the fighters only trump card when faced with a powerful spellcaster, there is just no reason to take a very fundamental class if you plan on doing anything other than hang around in the inn or fighting monsters. A cleric will fight just as well as you do and has magic to boot.

[Sep]

Here is the inherent problem with knockdown:

Knockdown is a single feat, or two feats, if you elect for the improved version. This one or two time feat automatically gets better with any attack bonus, be it from BAB, ability increasing items, AB enhancing feats, or weapon bonuses. It is the gift that keeps on giving.

The counter for this is not a feat, or two feats, but a skill check. This skill check needs to be incremented at every level up at a cost to the character. Thus you have an automatically increasing feat trying to oppose a manually, and costly, increasing skill check. It is not opposing strength checks, or opposing feat checks.

Example:

Move silently vs listen : skill vs. skill
PP vs spot : skill vs skill
taunt vs concentration : skill vs skill
rapid shot vs deflect arrows : feat vs feat
spell penetration vs iron will/great fortitude/lightning reflexes : feat vs feat

feat vs skill is inherently unequal.
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"Here comes Halfling death!"

[Thargelion]

Well...

Knockdown vs Discipline

Yes it is a feat that improves... I do not see how that has much bearing on why the immunity is not fair. It is as I said a major part of the effectiveness of a fighter and it should be put in the same category as sneak attack., a basic but fundamental part of the characters fighting style. The knight who trains his entire career to be a man who excels in close combat should not be overmatched by characters in melee who should be relying on their true class advantages (ie sneak attacks and stealth, spells, tumbles, etc). To be immune to knockdown should be considered on par with immune to all magic or thief abilities.... something rather silly and quite out of sorts with balance.

[Sep]

I saw no proposal to remove Immunity to Sneak attack, or the mind-affecting spells. What good is an enchanter if everyone ( and a lot more people have immune to MA than KD) has immuntiy to mind affecting spells?

Anyway, the point is that KD vs Disc is unequal no matter how you slice it. No sense crying over spilled urine.
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"Here comes Halfling death!"

[Uin]

Thats the basic flaw with Disc.
Before every char had a defence against and KD/Trip move, opposed atk rolls, even a wiz has an atk roll.
So Disc is the single most broken thing ever.
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Your Friendly Scottish Hardass Ex-Moderator
Stone Deaf

[Nefiorim]

The major issue here isn't that these items exist, but that they exist in great amounts, IMO..

[Maelstrom696969]

Okay, so maybe Discipline is not a good defense to Knockdown, I'll agree with that. However, I think we all need to back up a minute and realize a basic tenant of D&D here:

A well-made high-level spellcaster, when fighting a well-made Fighter of the same level should be able to smack their butt down with no problem.

Thargelion, I don't mean this as an insult, but I wonder how familiar you are with the actual D&D universe when you make a statement like "well we should think of Clerics as Saints, they are not the avatars of their gods", because in the true D&D world, Clerics are just that: Avatars of their Gods!!!

I'm not saying that this isn't a good discussion, but it's all kind of moot if you're going to start talking about trying to make it easier for a high-level Fighter to beat a high-level spellcaster. Fighters are 100% physical beings (okay maybe a little mental sometimes), and spellcasters have learned how to take the physical universe and bend, twist, shape and mold it to their very whims. And Clerics in specific are a deadly combination of both...
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"Great warrior? Ah! Wars not make one great!"

[MerchanT]

If you're talking about the cleric I think you're talking about - there aren't many fighters he couldn't beat in melee combat anyway. It sounds to me like you're disagreeing with the laws of the D&D Universe. I mean you're entitled to do that but I don't know what you want anyone to do about it.

I have a high level fighter named Finn Mos'viel who I really enjoy playing with... I'm not really sure what kind of PVP fighter he is. But I know that if I try to knock someone down with him (which he is really good at) and it doesn't work, I just move on to other tactics. If you're going to be a one-trick-pony you shouldn't complain that someone has your trick figured out, you should learn a new trick.

Also this silliness about being no reason to ever take a fighter level I take serious umbrage with. Even the cleric I was talking about earlier has a few fighter levels (3-4? Not sure). It sounds kind of like you are going down to the character level and saying, "Because you are not invincible, your whole life has been a waste."

I disagree and I'm sure Finn would too.
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Peace,

Adam

/ Meet the Mos'viels! /
* Baleric * Finn * Mordecai *

[Thargelion]

I do not take it as a personal attack (and nor should anyone else... this is a fairly technical commentary) but I shall retort to the comment about avatars. Clerics do the bidding of their god (if they are of great power) but more often of their church and its interpretation of their gods bidding or to a cause. The cleric gains power from fulfilling the mandate of their god\church\cause... they are not said god walking about the earth. The 20th Level Cleric of Cyric or Helm are faithful followers not the gods themselves. (hence cannot be avatars which are defined as a gods physical embodiment). As for the DnD definition, 'Clerics are masters of divine magic... Clerics have some combat training...' Nowhere in the DnD universe does it say anywhere that 'Clerics are as good as any warrior class at melee and do not need to improve self discipline because their legs are made of stone and are therefor immune to melee fighters'. Yes, they combine certain aspects of melee fighters and can be very impressive in their own right with in close combat with the powers of divine magic, this is why I love to play clerics too. I fail to see any DnD justification though for why they should be equal to a warrior class in melee as well as being imbued with divine power. It is still a game with some balance in mind regarding classes. If a cleric really wants to hold off against knockdowns, they should be wearing items that give discipline bonuses and improving the skill itself.

[Thargelion]

((while writing the other message appeared...)) This has nothing to do with wanting an uber character... my fighter is not particularily great at PvP anyhow, he places a greater focus on diplomacy and intellect while IC. However... this is not an attack on any actual cleric in the game, as any character can have these items... which at least should be so rare that only the greatest of their field should possess. This has nothing to do with disliking the rules of a DnD universe... it is merely that there are certain combinations given by powerful items that take away the ingame strengths and weaknesses of each class. A 20th Level fighter or Monk or Barbarian should be able to defeat a spell casting class in a straight out slug fest... that is what they are there for, the other classes have 'their own' abilities to defeat such people with.

[Maelstrom696969]

I will admit that I was a little loose in my interpretation of the term "Avatar". You are right, Clerics are certainly not the embodiment of their God. However, a high-level Cleric has found great favor with their God, and it imbued with many of the God's powers (or at least gleans their powers from their God, you could say).

We're not trying to say that Fighters don't have a place - they most certainly do! Find me a party of adventurers who don't want a meat shield or two around - somebody who can smash down doors, lift gates and bend bars - and I'll show you one seriously unbalanced party. But in straight up one-on-one combat, then yes the D&D universe grants some advantages to some classes over others. That's just the way it is. Like I said, powerful spellcasters are just better 99% of the time.

By the way, I have to say that a 20th level Monk will give a 20th level spellcaster a good run for their money, if not stomp them silly. You cannot truly compare a Monk to a Fighter or Barbarian, because Monks aren't just fighters, they are fighters who use natural immunities and resistances that make them excellent mage-killers.
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"Great warrior? Ah! Wars not make one great!"

[Jon316]

*watches the lamers discuss what they think they know about pvp*

...

[Maelstrom696969]

Jon, you are such a lamer.

[Jon316]

hehehehe.... sure I am, and that's all I need you to know, just remember one thing, when your lying face down in the dirt, don't say I don't know how to pvp

[Drudley]

Remove all immunities, such a simple solution, give the items with knockdown immunity a raging boost of discipline instead

[Maelstrom696969]

Yes! Remove all immunities! OMG how did I forget about the fact that we don't really want Dyso to be anything like D&D!

[M-K]

As usual Maelstrom and others quote the bits of D and D they like and ignore the bits they dont like.If we have a total inclusion of DD healing parties resting gaining Xp etc etc then fine what you say about mages.If not and you are talking about a game like NWN that has links to DD talk more of play balance and how you create a system where one class is not too over powerfull in regards to others.
Yes just as example i logged on the other day i looked art the list 3 fighters 2 monks 2 thieves 5 clerics and 7 other magic users...now is this a fair representation of a DD universe?...where the majority are magic users.And why are there many of this type??? to RP some yes.. most no way just listen to there talk of ownage ..come to arena with me...wow look im unstobbale time stop and 6 wilts i rule..So if you want some Rp and sense probably some balancing would be a good idea...but dont go saying this is DD cos it aint
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"It is almost universally felt that when we call a country democratic we are praising it; consequently, the defenders of every kind of regime claim that it is a democracy, and fear that they might have to stop using the word if it were tied down to any one meaning."

-George Orwell


"Orwell was right : Pacifists are the objective allies of tyrants."

As said by Pompey the Great
Do not talk to us of Laws.we have swords

[Little Teapot]

no, it's not D&D

It's NWN, but people find that some aspects of PnP help balance out the parties, and give some more balance... as before it heavily favored casters (in the original, unchanged NWN)

Also: every Class EXCEPT Fighter, barbarian and Rogue are spellcasters to some small extent...
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Matthijs says:
   oh ja, ik weet het zonet nog niet
Matthijs says:
   het ziet er toch wel een beetje naar uit dat we nederlands praten
Matthijs says:
   mischien moet ik dan maar eens vaker nederlands gaan praten
Matthijs says:
   kan je me ook meteen niet op al mijn spellinsfouten wijzen
There you have it! indisputable proof Solo's a fascist!!!

[Kindo]

But rogues can use scrolls. So...


Anyway,
*Tammi finds a helmet that gives immunity: poison and Tammi frowns*
*Tammi finds a helmet that gives +5 fortitude save vs poison and Tammi cheers*

[MerchanT]

M-K: There really isn't anything to do on Dyso BUT arena fight right now. Every once in a while one of the people in power comes in here and makes some tongue in cheek remark about how the server wipe (which they acknowledge we will gain nothing from) is coming so people aren't going to waste time developing characters that are as good as toasted. I haven't seen a DM event in a few weeks either (althought it could just be they're happening when I'm not on).

I have heard a share of people saying they are unstoppable (as have you) and I've seen many of them stopped. But the number of people who focus on PVP and being "uber" is ALWAYS going to be higher when there is nothing else to do -- like now.
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Peace,

Adam

/ Meet the Mos'viels! /
* Baleric * Finn * Mordecai *